Full text of 2012 CNS interview with future Pope Leo XIV on new evangelization

Then-Father Robert F. Prevost, who was the prior general of the Augustinians, attended the world Synod of Bishops on the New Evangelization in 2012.  Here are the full transcript and video of the wide-ranging interview with CNS after the synod. While our questions have been abbreviated his answers are included in full.

Q: How should the church think about evangelization in today’s media-saturated environment?

A: The “how you do this” I think is a very complex question with a more complex answer. The synod itself tried to address this. I think most people in the church recognize today the need for the media, the need that the church has to get the message out to people. So, this isn’t meant as sort of a blanket elimination of the media in terms of the usefulness that the instruments of modern communication can have for the church and for announcing the message. But one thing that was repeated numerous times in the synod was that the whole concept of the new evangelization needs to begin with a personal encounter with Jesus Christ. People have to, in some way, be led or invited into an experience where they can rediscover what it means to have faith, what it means to have a relationship with Jesus Christ, what it means to recognize that God is indeed a part of our lives.

St. Augustine would say that God is closer to us than we are to ourselves, but the reality in society today is that people have become alienated from the God who does dwell within us, and so to help people rediscover the presence of God, to rediscover the meaning of a relationship with Jesus Christ is a big challenge, but I think that’s what the starting point is.

Q: How can the church attract people and draw them into an experience of faith?

A: Certainly, the church has recognized after the experience of the past 50 years that we should not be trying to create spectacle, if you will, theater, just to make people feel interested in something which in the end is very superficial and not profound, not meaningful in their lives.

The young man who spoke at the synod, the catechist, the 23-year-old catechist from Rome, talked about this and the need for preparation of priests which I touch upon in my own intervention. Certainly, what liturgy should be about, what faith should be about, is somehow coming in contact with that mystery, if you will, the mystery of God who is love, God who dwells within us, God who is indeed present in humanity and who’s revealed himself through Jesus Christ, the way to discover God is not really through spectacle. And I think many times people have been maybe misled, people have gone looking for God in ways that in the end have been proven to be sidetracked and not really essential in terms of discovering the mystery, if you will, the truth about who God is and what experience of living a life of faith is about.

Q: What can the early church teach us about evangelization?

A: I make reference especially to the time of the fathers of the church because of an Augustinian perspective and I think also a rediscovery that the church has made since the time of the (Second Vatican) Council with respect to the value that the study of the fathers of the church has.

The Vatican documents, the documents of the Second Vatican Council, all through Pope Benedict today, we see constant references to St. Augustine and to many other fathers of the church. And we do believe, we’re convinced that the fathers of the church have a great deal to contribute because of a number of parallel or similar circumstances that the church lived in the first centuries and that the church is living today, with perhaps the tendency to look at the secular world, if you will, what we call the secular world today, for all the answers and a discovery that all the answers are not there and that people are really looking for something else and that the searching for meaning in life, ultimately the searching for explanations, for answers, for understanding life and death, for understanding who we are as human beings, and what our life is all about — that the fathers do indeed have a great deal to say to us. So, the reference there I think is, from my perspective, very much centered on or growing out of a conviction that the fathers of the church do have a lot to offer us.

You could go on from there also, I think, that beyond the reference to St. Augustine and the encounter between the emperor and the pirate and looking at the kinds of myths that society can promote, the kind of attitudes that can fool people into thinking that “this is what you’re really looking for” when in reality, it can be very superficial or even an outright lie, falsehoods that convince people that this is the way to go — when people discover the truth or are helped to understand what is really true and meaningful in life, that many things do change in fact. And so, again, I think the experience of the study of the fathers of the church as one important part of the theology of our Christian faith has a lot to offer to the world today.

Q: Should Catholics try to eliminate or drastically limit the use of digital media in their lives?

A: I’d have to give that more thought. I don’t think that turning away from the media would be the answer and I don’t even know to what extent that’s possible. It happens that just recently I was reading about a contributor to a major news network in the United States who herself doesn’t even own a television set, which is very interesting. She works in the field, but she understands, it seems, that certainly you cannot just take at face value what’s offered in today’s society by mass media.

And I think, personally, that the answer, rather than turning away, is in the area of formation. How do we teach people to become critical thinkers? How do we teach people to understand that not everything you hear or everything you read should be taken at face value? And how do we come to give people the formation that they need to read something or to hear something and to be able to discern, if you will, to understand that underlying the message that’s being communicated is a very different message or a very subtle message that has severe consequences for the future of society, let’s say, that can or cannot be understood as a part of a much bigger picture, if you will.

I began reflecting on this topic myself because of having lived outside the United States now for a number of years, and then when I would go back to the United States and perhaps just watch a TV show at random or visiting friends or relatives, seeing the change that has taken place in the kinds of content that are in sitcoms, that are spoken about on your regular TV programs, even on news shows, the kinds of messages that seem to be portrayed, and the slant that is taken at times in whichever direction, the kinds of even polemical argumentation that is presented on TV in the United States.

Following through with that, I think it’s not just the United States, we find it a lot in the Western world, and it changes from place to place, depending on where you are. After giving my intervention, an Italian came to speak to me about it and said, well, he didn’t agree with what I said, for example, the mention of abortion. He said, “We don’t talk about that in Italy.” And I said, “Well, maybe you don’t in Italy, but we certainly do in other parts of the Western world.” But then he came up himself with other examples of how the media has been used in Italy to present certain kinds of arguments, certain political questions that in the same way. If you control the media, you can at least partially control the way people are thinking, because that’s the message that people hear constantly.

So again, I think our real challenge is in formation, our challenge is in preparing people to become critical thinkers and to understand what’s going on in the world around us today.

Q: In your synod speech, you spoke about “rhetoric” and teaching the truth. How can the church do that sensitively and successfully?

A: I think that, again, looking at several things that were pointed out during the synod, the answer has to be multifaceted, of course.

The question about rhetoric that I bring up, I think that today the formation that we give to future priests is extremely important. The preaching that is done has to be done well. This, too, was pointed out by some of the synod fathers, at times, half in jest, but I’m sure very seriously in every occasion where reference was made to the Sunday homily. And someone said, maybe we should even examine ourselves: how are we preaching and what are we saying and what’s, not so much the content, in terms of the message, but the way that we do it. Are we able today to reach out to people and convince them of the message. So, there’s a very important question there.

It’s been acknowledged that most people today receive their so-called ongoing catechesis or ongoing education in the faith in those eight to 10 minutes, 15 minutes of the Sunday homily, and that’s it for the week. So that places a great challenge before those of us who are called to stand up in the pulpit and to announce the Good News.

Obviously, there’s a challenge that has been spoken about of the need to organize programs of adult education, of ongoing catechesis, preparation for the sacraments and follow up after the sacraments at all stages of life. But there, again, I think the church in every country or within every culture has to seriously ask itself: How are we going to get people to come back and listen? Or how are we going to go out to people with the message so that they hear what it is we’re trying to communicate in terms of the teaching of the Gospel, the teaching of Jesus Christ. And that is a big challenge because those who are still coming to church, and there are many of course, receive those eight minutes of a homily, if you will, hopefully are also being introduced to that mystery that we spoke about earlier and, in some way, are growing at least in the desire to know more about their faith and so you have one area of work or activity there.

But we also have to ask ourselves: What about all those people who are leaving actively or who have just fallen away in sort of a passive way? How do we get back to them? How do we reach out to them, invite them in? And there’s a lot of discussion on that.

I think there were some good exchanges during the synod on this topic but I’m sure that there’s a lot more work to do as each bishops’ conference or as the church universal continues to reflect upon the challenges of the new evangelization. We need to reach out to those people as well. And so, again, formation is the answer, but how do you deliver the message? How do you deliver, if you will, the teaching of the Gospel to people, so many people, who will not be there on Sunday morning to hear the Sunday morning homily?

Q: Can social media help the church evangelize?

A: As a matter of fact, many people within the church recognize the value of social media if it’s used properly, of course, and the need for the church to at least have a presence there. There are a number of bishops in the United States, for example, who have a page on Facebook or who are on Twitter, those are the two areas that I’m a little bit familiar with.

I personally put some things up once in a while on Facebook, and I’m amazed at the very quick response that I receive from around the world, in my case, because there are Augustinians and lay people connected with the Augustinian order who follow my Facebook page. So, I’ll put a little piece of news up there, an invitation, a little reflection at times and that is a way of reaching people.

So, again, I think the church needs to be sophisticated, if you will, also in terms of the use of the social networks that are available to us. It’s just one more way of reaching out to people and maybe a little word, a little reflection, an invitation will be the trick, (not) the trick, will be the way that we can reach out to someone and make them, again, reflect about their faith and even encourage them to come back and find out more.

Q: What do you think about the algorithms that favor certain content on social media?

A: Yes, it can be a very — it is very powerful, wide-reaching and can be very effective just as it can be damaging in the sense that, again, if someone does not have a discerning or critical ability to see what’s there, it can also mislead someone very easily.

Q: What is the role of religious orders in evangelization today?

A: Certainly, the importance of religious life throughout the history of the church, I think, needs to be appreciated and cannot really be underestimated. It became clear even through the work of this synod how so many of the synod fathers, if you will, bishops, those participating in the synod, really did acknowledge the great contribution that religious life has had throughout the history of the church, especially if we look at the first evangelization, if you will, the whole idea of the mission “ad gentes,” as it’s called, frequently done primarily by religious who of course then established the local church in the different areas and that grew into what we know today.

Since the time of the Council when all religious communities were invited to rediscover their founding charisms, if you will, to rediscover the roots of their lives and to reform, to renew their/our lives, a lot has gone on, indeed. I think a lot of very good things have come out of that renewal process. But, as always, not all has been perfect. There have been some significant challenges to religious life. One of the things that some of us religious who were in the synod wanted to address was the very question of how the church is challenging us today and how we need to also be receptive and responsive in the renewal of our lives to serving the needs of the church, which is why we were founded — each congregation or each order, in a particular way at a particular moment in history. There’s certainly a lot to be gained from restudying, if you will, revisiting the whole history of religious life.

The consecrated life, I think, as we talk about the new evangelization, has also been acknowledged in terms of the charisms we’ve received, the gifts that have been given to the different religious orders, congregations, and how we can better place them at the service of the church. The whole idea of mission is one area. But the contribution and the commitment of religious communities to education, for example, has also been recognized. And certainly the church in so many different schools (and) universities that are serving members of the church and others throughout the world to a great extent are because of religious congregations and orders, you know, the work we’re doing.

So, the presence of religious life in the synod was significant. By the rules of the synod, I think it’s a privilege that we have, but it’s a recognition that the church does in fact see that the presence of, in our case 10 religious general superiors that were part of the synod, that there is a voice there, that there is something that the church recognizes and wants to hear from, you know, in terms of ourselves who are there representing, in effect, the whole union of superiors general, all the different religious communities. And a number of women religious who were invited and also were able to speak as official listeners, if you will, “auditores,” during the synod, I think much was gained in the experience of the synod by listening to these different leaders.

I didn’t count them, but the number of the bishops who were there who are also members of religious congregations — the Franciscans, they had a significant number, but there were Salesians, Augustinians, members of different religious communities there as well — so the formation of religious life and the charismatic gifts, as they’re called, in the church in addition to the hierarchical gifts were part of the whole reflection there.

Q: What is the relationship between religious orders and the hierarchy of the church?

A: Yeah, depending on historical periods, I would say there have been times when there was greater harmony, at times when perhaps there were some tensions — tension that I don’t mean that in a bad sense. I think tension is a good thing but in terms of what the gifts of religious life are and what the gifts in terms of the local church may be and the way that the two have worked together. Yeah, the history of that is fascinating.

Q: Is there growing harmony now between religious and bishops?

A: This was my first synod, however, listening to several synod fathers who have participated in a number of synods, they did point out that they believe this was the most harmonious experience, the best experience of a recognition of the presence of religious life within the life of the church that they had had during a synod within, whatever the past in their case they were talking about, the past 20 years let’s say. So, I certainly see that as positive.

I think there are a number of things that could be said about why during the past 50 years religious life at times was not acknowledged in the way that some of us would certainly believe it should have been acknowledged. There were problems at times, but I think to make a globalization of a statement, you know, a universal statement about religious life is “all this” or “all that” is not helpful. There were individuals or, perhaps at times, groups within a particular religious congregation or in particular areas where the tensions that exist or even conflict, at times, were problematic.

This has also been a time when new gifts have been given to the church. I think we need to acknowledge the many blessings that have come to the church through what we call the new ecclesial movements. And with the growth of these new movements and the gifts that they’ve had, I think some people, at times, have seen them as perhaps taking responsibility or leadership in an area which, traditionally, had been part of the work of religious life. And I think even there we’re coming to a point today where we’re recognizing the need and the challenge of harmonizing in a much, much more, let’s say a much healthier way, in a more realistic way, the different gifts that are offered to the church through these diverse experiences of religious life, of the ecclesial movements and, of course, of the hierarchical gifts in terms of coordinating the work of the church together with the bishops and together with the gifts that we’ve all received. So, there have been a lot of changes taking place in that, but I see the movement that’s taking place as a very positive thing.

A couple of interventions during the synod addressed this directly, and I thought that was very positive, rather than kind of closing one eye or pretending that the tensions hadn’t been there or just ignoring one or the other dimension. We found that even in the final propositions, that the harmonious understanding of the fuller nature of the church with these various dimensions of participation of the laity, of the ecclesial movements, of religious life or consecrated life, of secular institutes, of the contemplative life, which was also highlighted during the synod several times, and of course of the hierarchical gifts expressed primarily through the bishops, the leadership that the bishops offer the church — all these various aspects need to be brought together and need to work together for the good of the church and for the fulfillment of the mission of the church.

Q: Why does the church need both traditional consecrated life and the new church movements?

A: I would say very broadly, first of all, consecrated life, if I can use that expression, is not primarily about the work that religious do, but rather about the total consecration of one’s life to God, which I think is different from the movements, even though within some of the movements, you do have people living a kind of consecrated life and there’s a gray area there, if you will, an overlapping. But generally speaking, even within the movements once you have people beginning to make what we call public vows within the church, you’re really moving into the area of consecrated life.

And while on a juridical level, everything hasn’t been set into category A and category B, I think quite clearly that the special gift that consecrated life is to the church is precisely who we are as religious in professing our lives through the evangelical councils — poverty, chastity and obedience — as a sign of the Kingdom, as a sign of the world to come. And I think that is different, in a significant way, from what you have in many of the movements where you have people, primarily lay people, working in one or another area of the life of the church and certainly offering their gifts of service to the church but would be seen much more in terms of the kinds of activity of preaching the Gospel, living the Gospel, which of course religious do as well, which priests do as well, so we’re all kind of sharing in the mission. But the particular dimension of the profession of vows and the total consecration of one’s life to God in and through different kinds of community experiences, I think there’s a definite contribution that religious life still has to make to the church and to the world today.

You also find, although here too there’s a lot of gray areas, but frequently when we think about moving, if you will, to the margins, moving out to those difficult areas where the church needs to be in terms of living out the Gospel message, that frequently it’s men and women of consecrated life who are the ones to go into the Darfur region or into South Sudan or into very troubled areas where you wouldn’t even want to ask a family to go to because of the risks involved and so often it has been consecrated life that’s been on the margins, if you will, reaching out to those people in difficult areas so that the Gospel message will be heard in those difficult kinds of situations. Yet, you can’t make blanket statements about these things, but I see that there’s a service that each one of these different kinds of ecclesial life can offer to the world today.

Q: What do you see as challenges facing the church and new evangelization?

A: The synod itself, taking place around the 50th anniversary of the Second Vatican Council, and with Pope Benedict’s decision to open the Year of Faith, I think there are some significant coincidences, if you will, deliberate choices being made in reality that need to be highlighted. I think the deliberate commitment, renewal of a commitment on the part of all of the synod fathers, to renew the ongoing implementation of Vatican Council II, of promoting the life of the church in the world today, to continuing ecumenical dialogue, are some of the areas that are both challenges and yet significant commitments in terms of what went on during this synod.

We’ve spoken about the presence of religious life as a part of that. I think that within the message that was given — prepared for the end of the synod — to all the people of God as it is addressed, it was a very joyful, uplifting message but also very realistic, recognizing the challenges that the church has to face in a society that, at least in some areas, is becoming more and more deafened to the message of the Gospel, to the presence of God. Some of those challenges really need to be taken on, and yet I think that the optimistic spirit, that the hope-filled spirit that was a part of the synod really is something that needs to be communicated effectively to the people who are listening, the people who are already with us, if you will, and that together we all need to take very seriously our commitment — which comes from baptism — that all of us together have a responsibility to share the good news, to share the Gospel with the world around us.

Q: What is the relationship between personal experience and faith?

A: In terms of experience, again I’ll come back to St. Augustine, someone who we as Augustinians certainly appreciate and know very well, but I would say that Augustine is one of the church fathers who very clearly spoke about experience. And one of the reasons that “The Confessions” continues to be one of the widest-read books in the history of the world is precisely because of Augustine’s insight into human experience. And he does a magnificent job of communicating both his own experience and what he lived and how that experience can indeed be a window, if you will, an opening to discovering a personal experience of God in human life.

Human experience, he says, is precisely where you can find God, and the humanity of Augustine is not something which leads into a kind of a personalized, egoistic, “it’s all about me and only me” world, but quite the opposite. Because of Augustine’s understanding of humanity, that human experience is actually the door that leads one into discovering who God is, and then a movement that Augustine speaks of in different areas about how going into God also leads you into solidarity with other people. And that second part of living in solidarity with others is perhaps a piece of the experience that is missing nowadays. So often today in the highly individualistic society that people are growing up in, people think that my experience is the criteria: “Am I happy?” or “Am I not happy?” What that might really be is “Do I feel pleasure?” or “Don’t I feel pleasure?” or “Do I feel selfish?” and if I feel OK then that’s all that matters.

And I think that certainly Augustine’s experience says that, “Well, that isn’t enough and maybe what you’re calling happiness isn’t authentic happiness because you’re going to lose that, too.” And most things that people seem to describe as “Well, why are you happy today?” are things that are either very superficial or at best, you know, important for a short period of time but that aren’t going to last forever. And Augustine gives some insight into helping people understand that having an experience of God brings you far beyond yourself and includes that dimension of as what I would call, human solidarity, of understanding the universal brotherhood, sisterhood of men and women and that how an authentic experience of happiness has to include other people and has to include being concerned about other people and those are elements that express, I think, a very important part of the Gospel message. It’s not just about me and my experience of God either. You might have people say, “Oh, I have an experience of God, and I don’t have to do anything else.” Well then, that’s probably not an authentic experience of God because as we know from the Gospels, as we know from the apostolic letters, if you love God then you also need to be showing that by loving your neighbor and that the two go hand in hand.

And, so, experience can be a wonderful tool, if you will, to help bring people into an experience of Christ in their lives, of God in their lives. Augustine in “The Confessions” talks about friendship, talks about family, talks about the importance of his mother, talks about his father, talks about human ambition, talks about so many different aspects of human life and then goes on to explain how these things helped or did not help his own personal pathway to discovering God and to discovering what is really holy about life.

So, I think that this openness to experience is not something that is new, but something that’s being rediscovered and that there are great treasures to be discovered there if, once again, people understand we’re not talking about “It’s how I want to do it,” but rather how my understanding, my life can lead me into a much fuller understanding of what humanity is about, what human life is about and, therefore, what the encounter with God is about.

Q: What difference does faith make when considering the meaning of life and the reality of death?

A: It is precisely when one sits down and begins to reflect upon those ultimate questions that a choice is available to us, and I think that someone who, if you will, rationally and logically wants to embrace some kind of atheism — if we can call it that, if any true atheists do exist — that’s a rather pessimistic and dark way to understand what life is about. And I think that the wisdom of the fathers, the wisdom of the church through centuries, the wisdom and the universal dimension of, if you will, religious experience shows that there is much more to life than that. And that as a matter of fact, it isn’t all dark, and that when one comes to discover this mystery that it is something which goes far beyond anything that the superficial world of spectacle can offer to us, and I think that the wisdom of the ages, if you will, along with the experience that we can indeed live the peace, the true sense of happiness that those who do search for God in their lives, the happiness that they can find is indeed a gift that shows us what real truth is about, that shows us what real life is about and gives us an understanding to what the meaning of life is.
 

 

Catholic News Service also asked then-Father Prevost to read the full text of the intervention he had prepared for the Synod of Bishops on the New Evangelization. That speech is presented in the two videos below:

Catholic News Service had a chance to interview the future pope again in 2023 right after Pope Francis made him a cardinal. CNS asked if his views had changed since his 2012 talk and the mass media’s promotion of “abortion, euthanasia, and the homosexual lifestyle.”

CNS also asked Cardinal Prevost, who was then-prefect for the Dicastery of Bishops, how he responds to problems with bishops or dioceses.

Reporting by CNS Rome is made possible by the Catholic Communication Campaign. Give to the CCC special collection in your diocese May 31-June 1 or any time at: https://bit.ly/CCC-give

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